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	<title>Comments on: Realms of Covers</title>
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	<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/</link>
	<description>Between Boundaries</description>
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		<title>By: F.J. Bergmann</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22613</link>
		<dc:creator>F.J. Bergmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22613</guid>
		<description>The one aspect of cover-image selection that seems to be overlooked (and I&#039;m surprised that neither Douglas Cohen nor Warren Lapine have mentioned it, is that identifiable female faces--and to a lesser extent, bodies--sell books and magazines. Even a poet with a recent book told me that his publishers said he had to have a cover with a female face instead of the appropriate and attractive one he wanted--because it would sell better.

What makes a face female, you ask? I&#039;m not sure--but boobs beneath it are the (ostensible, anyway) clincher. I&#039;m hetero-female, and I&#039;d rather look at women than men. So would my daughters. When I asked why, the youngest one said, &quot;Because they&#039;re prettier.&quot; Can&#039;t argue with that.

And, speaking of pretty, the cover is incredibly so. I didn&#039;t see it as excessively sexualized; the woman is facing away, rather than exhibiting any come-hither-iness. What I admired and envied, speaking as an occasional artist, was the unusual palette and richness of color and the masterful effect of iridescence on the scales. And I&#039;ll bet dollars to donuts that the artist&#039;s pride is in that gorgeous cluster of spangled feathers on the figure&#039;s head, to which the eye is drawn more than anywhere else.

What we ought to be screaming our heads off about instead, as writers, is the horrible writing/copyediting/proofreading in Tanith Lee&#039;s story, not the fact that they used a cover that might actually sell a magazine that could someday publish us--if it stays in business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one aspect of cover-image selection that seems to be overlooked (and I&#8217;m surprised that neither Douglas Cohen nor Warren Lapine have mentioned it, is that identifiable female faces&#8211;and to a lesser extent, bodies&#8211;sell books and magazines. Even a poet with a recent book told me that his publishers said he had to have a cover with a female face instead of the appropriate and attractive one he wanted&#8211;because it would sell better.</p>
<p>What makes a face female, you ask? I&#8217;m not sure&#8211;but boobs beneath it are the (ostensible, anyway) clincher. I&#8217;m hetero-female, and I&#8217;d rather look at women than men. So would my daughters. When I asked why, the youngest one said, &#8220;Because they&#8217;re prettier.&#8221; Can&#8217;t argue with that.</p>
<p>And, speaking of pretty, the cover is incredibly so. I didn&#8217;t see it as excessively sexualized; the woman is facing away, rather than exhibiting any come-hither-iness. What I admired and envied, speaking as an occasional artist, was the unusual palette and richness of color and the masterful effect of iridescence on the scales. And I&#8217;ll bet dollars to donuts that the artist&#8217;s pride is in that gorgeous cluster of spangled feathers on the figure&#8217;s head, to which the eye is drawn more than anywhere else.</p>
<p>What we ought to be screaming our heads off about instead, as writers, is the horrible writing/copyediting/proofreading in Tanith Lee&#8217;s story, not the fact that they used a cover that might actually sell a magazine that could someday publish us&#8211;if it stays in business.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Harris/Jessica Freely</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22510</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Harris/Jessica Freely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 06:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22510</guid>
		<description>Just encountered this post and want to thank Tempest for speaking up for equal opportunity ogling.  

Also, here&#039;s a link to a blog by women erotica writers who are campaigning to get images of men on their books.  

http://eroticacoverwatch.wordpress.com/

Apparently erotica publishers don&#039;t think images of men on covers sell books, even though the majority of erotica readers are women.  Hmm.  Sounds familiar!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just encountered this post and want to thank Tempest for speaking up for equal opportunity ogling.  </p>
<p>Also, here&#8217;s a link to a blog by women erotica writers who are campaigning to get images of men on their books.  </p>
<p><a href="http://eroticacoverwatch.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://eroticacoverwatch.wordpress.com/</a></p>
<p>Apparently erotica publishers don&#8217;t think images of men on covers sell books, even though the majority of erotica readers are women.  Hmm.  Sounds familiar!</p>
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		<title>By: Mel</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22389</link>
		<dc:creator>Mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22389</guid>
		<description>I think Greek sculptors, among others, would disagree with you that the male body isn&#039;t inherently beautiful.  Frankly, I feel somewhat sorry for straight men sometimes, since so many women seem to not appreciate male bodies aesthetically.

And I&#039;m pretty sure there&#039;s some societal influence at work when so many people say the female body is inherently beautiful and the male body is not.  This is, after all, what the advertising industry and the media have conditioned us to respond to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Greek sculptors, among others, would disagree with you that the male body isn&#8217;t inherently beautiful.  Frankly, I feel somewhat sorry for straight men sometimes, since so many women seem to not appreciate male bodies aesthetically.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m pretty sure there&#8217;s some societal influence at work when so many people say the female body is inherently beautiful and the male body is not.  This is, after all, what the advertising industry and the media have conditioned us to respond to.</p>
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		<title>By: Mel</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22388</link>
		<dc:creator>Mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22388</guid>
		<description>Personally, I actually kind of like the cover, although I would like it more if she had nipples and you could actually SEE her tail (the mermaid thing is not very obvious).  

However, I probably would not buy a magazine to READ based on that cover, because it doesn&#039;t tell me much about the contents, and what it does suggest is that the stories inside would likely not interest me.  Also, it&#039;s not the kind of cover I want on material I&#039;ll see in public.

I would like ROF to use covers that are relevant to the stories within, and for the art not to be chosen based on which story is &quot;sexiest.&quot;  I&#039;d like to see covers where the image tells a story itself, or part of a story, rather than &quot;sexy woman&quot; (clothed or not) being the entire point of the image.  The mermaid isn&#039;t DOING anything other than being decorative. If she were doing something, if she appeared to have a story, I might have a different reaction to the cover.

Interspersing half-naked men would be more egalitarian, I guess, but I&#039;m not entirely convinced that anyone--women particularly--read specfic for the sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I actually kind of like the cover, although I would like it more if she had nipples and you could actually SEE her tail (the mermaid thing is not very obvious).  </p>
<p>However, I probably would not buy a magazine to READ based on that cover, because it doesn&#8217;t tell me much about the contents, and what it does suggest is that the stories inside would likely not interest me.  Also, it&#8217;s not the kind of cover I want on material I&#8217;ll see in public.</p>
<p>I would like ROF to use covers that are relevant to the stories within, and for the art not to be chosen based on which story is &#8220;sexiest.&#8221;  I&#8217;d like to see covers where the image tells a story itself, or part of a story, rather than &#8220;sexy woman&#8221; (clothed or not) being the entire point of the image.  The mermaid isn&#8217;t DOING anything other than being decorative. If she were doing something, if she appeared to have a story, I might have a different reaction to the cover.</p>
<p>Interspersing half-naked men would be more egalitarian, I guess, but I&#8217;m not entirely convinced that anyone&#8211;women particularly&#8211;read specfic for the sex.</p>
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		<title>By: Mel</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22387</link>
		<dc:creator>Mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22387</guid>
		<description>I must confess, as a woman and very occasional reader of ROF (mostly because the covers bore me, so I typically only pick up a newsstand copy if it has a story by someone I follow in it), I would be 100% more likely to subscribe if the covers were neither cheesecake nor beefcake (and in the past, I have generally not felt that the ROF covers were very representative of the stories).  I don&#039;t read speculative fiction for the sex; if I want sex, there are romance novels and porn.  I also like to be able to read magazines on the bus without feeling the need to mangle the cover to hide it.

But I suppose if the covers have to be &quot;sexy,&quot; I&#039;d be more likely to pick it up if they were equal-opportunity sexy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must confess, as a woman and very occasional reader of ROF (mostly because the covers bore me, so I typically only pick up a newsstand copy if it has a story by someone I follow in it), I would be 100% more likely to subscribe if the covers were neither cheesecake nor beefcake (and in the past, I have generally not felt that the ROF covers were very representative of the stories).  I don&#8217;t read speculative fiction for the sex; if I want sex, there are romance novels and porn.  I also like to be able to read magazines on the bus without feeling the need to mangle the cover to hide it.</p>
<p>But I suppose if the covers have to be &#8220;sexy,&#8221; I&#8217;d be more likely to pick it up if they were equal-opportunity sexy.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna Feruglio Dal Dan</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22293</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Feruglio Dal Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22293</guid>
		<description>I think it is possible to create images of female bodies that celebrate and respect instead of objectify. See Mapplethorpe, again. See Helmut Newton for how NOT to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is possible to create images of female bodies that celebrate and respect instead of objectify. See Mapplethorpe, again. See Helmut Newton for how NOT to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Dw3t-Hthr</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22292</link>
		<dc:creator>Dw3t-Hthr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22292</guid>
		<description>I certainly find male bodies more attractive and interesting than female ones.  And I don&#039;t think my heterosexuality is the only reason.

I think the fact that female bodies are constantly played for beauty-and-consumability, that it&#039;s impossible to go anywhere I might see advertising without visuals of expanses of female skin, all these things - I think mostly they&#039;ve burned me out, such that even well-done art with a female subject is something I find ... boring.  It takes something really exceptional to break through the ennui.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly find male bodies more attractive and interesting than female ones.  And I don&#8217;t think my heterosexuality is the only reason.</p>
<p>I think the fact that female bodies are constantly played for beauty-and-consumability, that it&#8217;s impossible to go anywhere I might see advertising without visuals of expanses of female skin, all these things &#8211; I think mostly they&#8217;ve burned me out, such that even well-done art with a female subject is something I find &#8230; boring.  It takes something really exceptional to break through the ennui.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna Feruglio Dal Dan</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22291</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Feruglio Dal Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22291</guid>
		<description>Brianna, I certainly don&#039;t want to argue with the fact that you don&#039;t find the male body aesthetically pleasing, but can I politely disagree that male nudes are by themselves obviously less gratifying than female ones? 

I admit that I have a low bar, being an easily pleased person. I like naked men, naked women, naked apes, naked snakes, and three-day old babies in plated armor. So I am not a reliable indicator. 

But I will put to you that for a long time in art the male body was actually considered much more aesthetically pleasing than the female one, hence the abundance of strapping young men in classical sculpture, and Michelangelo&#039;s art. Obviously the idea of what was beautiful and pleasing and worthy of be represented have changed with time, and culture. In classical culture the male body was represented because it embodied all the civic virtues of strength, valor, and so on. But then art was a political thing, in that it represented the polis. 

For us, art is something different, that has a lot to do with consumerism, and I don&#039;t say this judgmentally. I am not speaking about the cover, which like Tempest I actually liked very much, but there is a certain shift away from representing the handsome-virtuous and towards the attractive-consumable. Of course this is good for a magazine, who wants to attract customers and make them consume, in buying the magazine. 

But in this context, the idea that only, or mainly, the female form is consumable, starts to make one a bit uncomfortable. Or maybe it&#039;s just that I am Italian, and therefore a bit sensitized to this idea that women are valued for their beauty and, er, comsumability. :-(

Actually I find the mock-cover rather disturbing, as I think it is supposed to be. But all the same, I am realizing now, casting my mind back at the images of male beauty I remember from my having perused Mapplethorne&#039;s, Salgado&#039;s, and, er, far too many porn comics, how much I have missed images of male bodies. Don&#039;t they deserve to be celebrated as well? Although, I hasted to add, I don&#039;t want this to be taken as meaning that you should paint male bodies. One&#039;s artistic inspiration goes where it wants, and it&#039;s fine if it stays there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brianna, I certainly don&#8217;t want to argue with the fact that you don&#8217;t find the male body aesthetically pleasing, but can I politely disagree that male nudes are by themselves obviously less gratifying than female ones? </p>
<p>I admit that I have a low bar, being an easily pleased person. I like naked men, naked women, naked apes, naked snakes, and three-day old babies in plated armor. So I am not a reliable indicator. </p>
<p>But I will put to you that for a long time in art the male body was actually considered much more aesthetically pleasing than the female one, hence the abundance of strapping young men in classical sculpture, and Michelangelo&#8217;s art. Obviously the idea of what was beautiful and pleasing and worthy of be represented have changed with time, and culture. In classical culture the male body was represented because it embodied all the civic virtues of strength, valor, and so on. But then art was a political thing, in that it represented the polis. </p>
<p>For us, art is something different, that has a lot to do with consumerism, and I don&#8217;t say this judgmentally. I am not speaking about the cover, which like Tempest I actually liked very much, but there is a certain shift away from representing the handsome-virtuous and towards the attractive-consumable. Of course this is good for a magazine, who wants to attract customers and make them consume, in buying the magazine. </p>
<p>But in this context, the idea that only, or mainly, the female form is consumable, starts to make one a bit uncomfortable. Or maybe it&#8217;s just that I am Italian, and therefore a bit sensitized to this idea that women are valued for their beauty and, er, comsumability. :-(</p>
<p>Actually I find the mock-cover rather disturbing, as I think it is supposed to be. But all the same, I am realizing now, casting my mind back at the images of male beauty I remember from my having perused Mapplethorne&#8217;s, Salgado&#8217;s, and, er, far too many porn comics, how much I have missed images of male bodies. Don&#8217;t they deserve to be celebrated as well? Although, I hasted to add, I don&#8217;t want this to be taken as meaning that you should paint male bodies. One&#8217;s artistic inspiration goes where it wants, and it&#8217;s fine if it stays there.</p>
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		<title>By: tempest</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22283</link>
		<dc:creator>tempest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22283</guid>
		<description>Actually, my thoughts on this have all been clear. You seem to be the one making assumptions, stating that discussions of sexism imply it. But you don&#039;t seem to have read anything people have actually said. No one who isn&#039;t whining about me, anyway. The only thing I have implied with this post and my part of the discussion is that I wish RoF would take a new direction with the art they put on their covers. You can assume all you want, but have you actually engaged with the folks having this wider discussion? You certainly haven&#039;t engaged me in a useful manner. Why not try engaging Jim Hines or artist Janet Chui, both of whom have spoken very eloquently on the subject.

Also, I didn&#039;t mean you don&#039;t have a balanced view because you&#039;re the subject of the piece, I meant it&#039;s not balanced because of who you are.

Also, you&#039;ve just scored at least two on the discussions of sexism Bingo card. I hope you&#039;ll pause now before you score any more. The whole &quot;people looking to be offended will be&quot; argument is tired, wrong, and not worthy of someone with intelligence and class, which I have to assume you are since Frank married you, and I know he has an abundance of both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, my thoughts on this have all been clear. You seem to be the one making assumptions, stating that discussions of sexism imply it. But you don&#8217;t seem to have read anything people have actually said. No one who isn&#8217;t whining about me, anyway. The only thing I have implied with this post and my part of the discussion is that I wish RoF would take a new direction with the art they put on their covers. You can assume all you want, but have you actually engaged with the folks having this wider discussion? You certainly haven&#8217;t engaged me in a useful manner. Why not try engaging Jim Hines or artist Janet Chui, both of whom have spoken very eloquently on the subject.</p>
<p>Also, I didn&#8217;t mean you don&#8217;t have a balanced view because you&#8217;re the subject of the piece, I meant it&#8217;s not balanced because of who you are.</p>
<p>Also, you&#8217;ve just scored at least two on the discussions of sexism Bingo card. I hope you&#8217;ll pause now before you score any more. The whole &#8220;people looking to be offended will be&#8221; argument is tired, wrong, and not worthy of someone with intelligence and class, which I have to assume you are since Frank married you, and I know he has an abundance of both.</p>
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		<title>By: Brianna Wu</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/realms-of-covers/comment-page-1/#comment-22279</link>
		<dc:creator>Brianna Wu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=711#comment-22279</guid>
		<description>First of all, like Douglas Cohen, I had my fill of flame wars long ago. So, I&#039;m certainly not going to get in one right now. 

Secondly, I did read this whole thread - and I feel like you&#039;re certainly implying exploitation - even if you&#039;re not using that specific word. Frequently, discussions of sexism are loaded with that assumption. Perhaps, as a writer, you could make your feelings more clear. 

I don&#039;t think I have a balanced view, but not because I am the subject of this piece. My own art is focused 100 percent on women, often in highly suggestive poses. You can see it at http://www.briannaspacekat.com. I can guarantee you, there will never be any naked manflesh in a piece I do. 

People that are hellbent on being offended will be offended. There is no satisfying them. As an artist, I have no interest in making work to please the critics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, like Douglas Cohen, I had my fill of flame wars long ago. So, I&#8217;m certainly not going to get in one right now. </p>
<p>Secondly, I did read this whole thread &#8211; and I feel like you&#8217;re certainly implying exploitation &#8211; even if you&#8217;re not using that specific word. Frequently, discussions of sexism are loaded with that assumption. Perhaps, as a writer, you could make your feelings more clear. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I have a balanced view, but not because I am the subject of this piece. My own art is focused 100 percent on women, often in highly suggestive poses. You can see it at <a href="http://www.briannaspacekat.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.briannaspacekat.com</a>. I can guarantee you, there will never be any naked manflesh in a piece I do. </p>
<p>People that are hellbent on being offended will be offended. There is no satisfying them. As an artist, I have no interest in making work to please the critics.</p>
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