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	<title>Comments on: Dear People On The Asimov&#8217;s Boards and Elsewhere&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/</link>
	<description>Between Boundaries</description>
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		<title>By: My actual thoughts on Gardner Dozois at K. Tempest Bradford</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6920</link>
		<dc:creator>My actual thoughts on Gardner Dozois at K. Tempest Bradford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6920</guid>
		<description>[...] with the William Sanders rejection letter fiasco to do with my post last week where I said &#8220;The fact that Gardner Dozois brought up the specter of a lawsuit makes me wonder what’s hiding in ...&#8221; Some people (generally people who already dislike me, but perhaps also some who I respect) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with the William Sanders rejection letter fiasco to do with my post last week where I said &#8220;The fact that Gardner Dozois brought up the specter of a lawsuit makes me wonder what’s hiding in &#8230;&#8221; Some people (generally people who already dislike me, but perhaps also some who I respect) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Well-Meaning Anti-Whatever Zealotry and the Perils of Blogging &#124; Mike Brotherton: SF Writer</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6919</link>
		<dc:creator>Well-Meaning Anti-Whatever Zealotry and the Perils of Blogging &#124; Mike Brotherton: SF Writer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6919</guid>
		<description>[...] a very recent case which had me thinking about this, too, in which implications of racism were made due to missing a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a very recent case which had me thinking about this, too, in which implications of racism were made due to missing a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: lavendertook</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6906</link>
		<dc:creator>lavendertook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6906</guid>
		<description>Shiela,  I don&#039;t think there is a need here to defend whether Gardner has engaged in hate speech in his rejection letters. I read Tempest&#039;s statement as just a hypothetical among hypotheticals she threw out there to query why Gardner was engaging issues of copyright instead of the issue of hate speech here.    Tempest has apologized above and has taken the site climate explanation as an answer.  

 I&#039;m not quite so satisfied because the raising of the issue of copyright here still falls into a very common problem I&#039;ve seen time after time in discussions of racism and sexism.  It&#039;s a distraction from the issue at hand and derails the focus on the problem of racism and sexism.   After all, there are legal grounds to consider when hate speech is issued in a professional context, so why focus on the problems with copyright here instead?   Why address the copyright issue and not the problem with the racist speech here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shiela,  I don&#8217;t think there is a need here to defend whether Gardner has engaged in hate speech in his rejection letters. I read Tempest&#8217;s statement as just a hypothetical among hypotheticals she threw out there to query why Gardner was engaging issues of copyright instead of the issue of hate speech here.    Tempest has apologized above and has taken the site climate explanation as an answer.  </p>
<p> I&#8217;m not quite so satisfied because the raising of the issue of copyright here still falls into a very common problem I&#8217;ve seen time after time in discussions of racism and sexism.  It&#8217;s a distraction from the issue at hand and derails the focus on the problem of racism and sexism.   After all, there are legal grounds to consider when hate speech is issued in a professional context, so why focus on the problems with copyright here instead?   Why address the copyright issue and not the problem with the racist speech here?</p>
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		<title>By: lavendertook</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6905</link>
		<dc:creator>lavendertook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6905</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Someone compared the act of publishing a letter containing hurtful and racially charged language to whistle blowing. That isn’t why this letter was initially published.&lt;/i&gt;

Sheila, Jo Walton likened the publishing of the letter to whistle blowing.  I do define it as an act of whistle blowing.  Why do you not consider it to be that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Someone compared the act of publishing a letter containing hurtful and racially charged language to whistle blowing. That isn’t why this letter was initially published.</i></p>
<p>Sheila, Jo Walton likened the publishing of the letter to whistle blowing.  I do define it as an act of whistle blowing.  Why do you not consider it to be that?</p>
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		<title>By: Soon Lee</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6879</link>
		<dc:creator>Soon Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6879</guid>
		<description>*Applause*

Thanks, E.  Well said.

The problem with Asimov&#039;s is the lack of moderation that allows the sort of thing S.F. Murphy has been doing recently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*Applause*</p>
<p>Thanks, E.  Well said.</p>
<p>The problem with Asimov&#8217;s is the lack of moderation that allows the sort of thing S.F. Murphy has been doing recently.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff VanderMeer</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6874</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff VanderMeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6874</guid>
		<description>Sheila: I&#039;d just like to attest to this part &quot;letters were filled with good humor, encouragement, and insightful suggestions&quot;. I cannot recall anyone who was as kind or as interesting in rejection as Gardner, and I know that you&#039;ve continued that tradition.
Best,
JeffV</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheila: I&#8217;d just like to attest to this part &#8220;letters were filled with good humor, encouragement, and insightful suggestions&#8221;. I cannot recall anyone who was as kind or as interesting in rejection as Gardner, and I know that you&#8217;ve continued that tradition.<br />
Best,<br />
JeffV</p>
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		<title>By: Marguerite Reed</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6859</link>
		<dc:creator>Marguerite Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6859</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s cause I&#039;m fucking amazing.

With my herbal tea and cats and meditation, and shit.  *eye roll*

You&#039;ve taught me a lot.  Most of the time I do try to shut my mouth so my ears can open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s cause I&#8217;m fucking amazing.</p>
<p>With my herbal tea and cats and meditation, and shit.  *eye roll*</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve taught me a lot.  Most of the time I do try to shut my mouth so my ears can open.</p>
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		<title>By: Sheila Williams</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6856</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheila Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6856</guid>
		<description>Tempest, for close to twenty years, Gardner Dozois periodically handed me stacks and stacks of rejection letters to read through and organize so that I could field queries and be aware of what his editorial decisions were. While the letters were filled with good humor, encouragement, and insightful suggestions, never once did I come across one that I perceived to have a hint of bias against anyone&#039;s race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. We&#039;ve always published stories on the edge of &quot;acceptable fiction&quot; and as such, we&#039;ve been accused of promoting everything from bestiality to war mongering. Complaints come in saying that our stories promote pacifism, that we have too much religion in our stories and not enough religion, that too many stories are about gays and lesbians, that not enough stories are about gays and lesbians, that our stories are pornographic, that our stories aren&#039;t pornographic enough to warrant any warning of any kind, and just about any other complaint you can imagine and some you&#039;d never even think of until you saw the letters. I think this is possible because, like the founder, the editors at Asimov&#039;s (including myself), have been in favor of tolerance, even if that leads to many opposing viewpoints. Gardner and I, however, have never been supportive of intolerance, either. While we&#039;ve run stories that may have depicted difficult, unsympathetic, and sometimes vile characters, our stories have not advocated racism, sexism, homophobia, or cultural and religious intolerance. I don&#039;t engage in that sort of language or hold to those viewpoints in my personal or my professional life and they certainly don&#039;t show up in my rejection letters.

My discussion of the copyright issue has, to some extent, been taken out of context. Separate to this discussion, a number of people seemed to be unaware of the copyright protections that extend to our correspondence. After too many years of figuring out whether I can run letters, song lyrics, poetry, and homages in Asimov&#039;s, I&#039;ve become more of an expert on the subject than I ever set out to be. I&#039;ve deeply admired a number of people who have engaged in civil disobedience, but I considered those people brave because they knew they were breaking a law and were prepared to deal with the consequences. Someone compared the act of publishing a letter containing hurtful and racially charged language to whistle blowing. That isn&#039;t why this letter was initially published. It is a very good point, though, and it is why many subsequent discussions have arisen. Many people have resolved that they would publish such letters in full knowledge of the law. Doing so can be considered akin to civil disobedience&#039;s noble tradition, but it is certainly much braver to take such actions wittingly than without the realization that, while perhaps remote, there could be legal consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tempest, for close to twenty years, Gardner Dozois periodically handed me stacks and stacks of rejection letters to read through and organize so that I could field queries and be aware of what his editorial decisions were. While the letters were filled with good humor, encouragement, and insightful suggestions, never once did I come across one that I perceived to have a hint of bias against anyone&#8217;s race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. We&#8217;ve always published stories on the edge of &#8220;acceptable fiction&#8221; and as such, we&#8217;ve been accused of promoting everything from bestiality to war mongering. Complaints come in saying that our stories promote pacifism, that we have too much religion in our stories and not enough religion, that too many stories are about gays and lesbians, that not enough stories are about gays and lesbians, that our stories are pornographic, that our stories aren&#8217;t pornographic enough to warrant any warning of any kind, and just about any other complaint you can imagine and some you&#8217;d never even think of until you saw the letters. I think this is possible because, like the founder, the editors at Asimov&#8217;s (including myself), have been in favor of tolerance, even if that leads to many opposing viewpoints. Gardner and I, however, have never been supportive of intolerance, either. While we&#8217;ve run stories that may have depicted difficult, unsympathetic, and sometimes vile characters, our stories have not advocated racism, sexism, homophobia, or cultural and religious intolerance. I don&#8217;t engage in that sort of language or hold to those viewpoints in my personal or my professional life and they certainly don&#8217;t show up in my rejection letters.</p>
<p>My discussion of the copyright issue has, to some extent, been taken out of context. Separate to this discussion, a number of people seemed to be unaware of the copyright protections that extend to our correspondence. After too many years of figuring out whether I can run letters, song lyrics, poetry, and homages in Asimov&#8217;s, I&#8217;ve become more of an expert on the subject than I ever set out to be. I&#8217;ve deeply admired a number of people who have engaged in civil disobedience, but I considered those people brave because they knew they were breaking a law and were prepared to deal with the consequences. Someone compared the act of publishing a letter containing hurtful and racially charged language to whistle blowing. That isn&#8217;t why this letter was initially published. It is a very good point, though, and it is why many subsequent discussions have arisen. Many people have resolved that they would publish such letters in full knowledge of the law. Doing so can be considered akin to civil disobedience&#8217;s noble tradition, but it is certainly much braver to take such actions wittingly than without the realization that, while perhaps remote, there could be legal consequences.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt&#8217;s Bookosphere 7/11/08 &#171; Enter the Octopus</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6854</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt&#8217;s Bookosphere 7/11/08 &#171; Enter the Octopus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 03:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6854</guid>
		<description>[...] K. Tempest Bradford: Dear People on the Asimov&#8217;s Board and Elsewhere&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] K. Tempest Bradford: Dear People on the Asimov&#8217;s Board and Elsewhere&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Vicki</title>
		<link>http://tempest.fluidartist.com/dear-people-on-the-asimovs-boards-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-6847</link>
		<dc:creator>Vicki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tempest.fluidartist.com/?p=142#comment-6847</guid>
		<description>Tasmia, I think you need a refresher on math, specifically percentages and probability. Yes, Gardner has been in the field longer than Tempest. That&#039;s no basis whatsoever for guesses about the &quot;&lt;em&gt;percentage&lt;/em&gt; of bigotry&quot; in each of their correspondence (whether or not we limit the discussion to business correspondence related to sf and fantasy). 

If I have three times as many shirts as Jo, that doesn&#039;t mean I have a higher &lt;em&gt;percentage&lt;/em&gt; of blue shirts. It may not even mean I have a higher number of blue shirts than she does. Conversely, if we know that she has a higher percentage of blue shirts than I do, that doesn&#039;t tell us which of us has more actual blue shirts. It just tells us that if we each grab a shirt at random and, get dressed, she&#039;s more likely to be wearing blue than I am.

If none of your letters are bigoted, the percentage of bigoted letters will be 0 when you&#039;ve only sent three letters. It will still be 0% when you&#039;ve sent 3,000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tasmia, I think you need a refresher on math, specifically percentages and probability. Yes, Gardner has been in the field longer than Tempest. That&#8217;s no basis whatsoever for guesses about the &#8220;<em>percentage</em> of bigotry&#8221; in each of their correspondence (whether or not we limit the discussion to business correspondence related to sf and fantasy). </p>
<p>If I have three times as many shirts as Jo, that doesn&#8217;t mean I have a higher <em>percentage</em> of blue shirts. It may not even mean I have a higher number of blue shirts than she does. Conversely, if we know that she has a higher percentage of blue shirts than I do, that doesn&#8217;t tell us which of us has more actual blue shirts. It just tells us that if we each grab a shirt at random and, get dressed, she&#8217;s more likely to be wearing blue than I am.</p>
<p>If none of your letters are bigoted, the percentage of bigoted letters will be 0 when you&#8217;ve only sent three letters. It will still be 0% when you&#8217;ve sent 3,000.</p>
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